FED buggy racers

[Jo0lz]

Hi Jo0lz, long time hope you are well?

Hi Jon hows things? your old flexi bug is still going strong...though its had a new PL XR Seat and wide axle........

Quick question (to any one who may know) what was the difference in the Zurich insurance to make the change, ie did it cover beyound FED sites?

FED insurance is location and organisation based
BBC / BKPA / BKSA insurances are individual based
Zurich on the face of it appears to be
organisational based
with less restriction on locations
BUT will still maybe require RAs for any addtional sites

i heard off of someone the other evening, not going to mention names,, but in the convo the other person said that the FED might be dropping class 8`s from the insurance at hoy, in fact probably from the whole fed thing, (if i remember correctly its cos of some claim going through,or gone through)
Now i dont know if thats right or not,, so hopefully Jools can help out on that n squash it, ......

Andy thats news to me mate....I've had a number of conversations with the Sec of the Fed since the AGM and that has NOT been mentioned at ALL

... I just wanna go flying and have fun......

Me too Andy......Me too

[Jo0lz]

...Joolz - I don't think that really answers my question. When you say "we are a Fed site" what does that mean?

We are one a shrinking number of wind powered sports clubs that are affiliated to a national body which gives us insurance as an organisation rather than as individuals. So not only are we all insured for our individual wind powered sport activities the policy also insurers our events as well as the actions of the officers of the club in their duities of running the club. The FED insurance also operates to an agreed set of procedures and risk assessments in place [this is why it ends up site specific] and this is why Local Authorities tend to be happier to talk to a club affiliated to a national body.

BPKA / BKSA insurance insures the individual against their liability to the public should their kiting activities as an individual harm a member of the public. It does not cover any event or the actions of a club or group.

So what if I've got my own adequate cover - what invalidates my bpka insurance at Hoy?

its a question of the contents of the license for us to use the foreshore that we have from Wirral Borough Council

I'd be interested to see the licence from the council. Is it on the basis of being affiliated to the Fed expressly or merely to a national body? Perhaps there are other national bodies which "class 8" already complies with which would satisfy the council.

That's an excellent question that ....and as I've only been Sec for a month I cannot honestly answer it.....BUT I will look into it

Finally - does anyone involved in the organisation of our sport here truly hand on heart really understand all this insurance stuff?

Hmmm another excellent question. I have suspicions that Toni [FED Insurance Officer for a about a fortnight] knows more than most and I'm sorry she felt under too much pressure to continue the role...as there was a really opportunity [for a couple of weeks] that the FED could possibly get much better insurance that could possibly have made things more inclusive.......

[Jo0lz]

Whats a "traditional Fed site"?
Only ask as I understood that a few years ago one on that list became a FED site at the insistance of the local council? So if no longer a FED site then what rstrictions will apply?
If we are now splitering even more.....???

Jon

Spooky are you talking about Ainsdale?
If so it was still a FED site in 2007
as the FED paid insurance cover for it
Even though the FED club there is virtually dormant!!
If the FED hadn't paid insurance cover I have a feeling that SuperCup events run there would have been uninsured

Meanwhile because Sefton Council control the use of their beach themselves any individual can turn up with individual public liability insurance cover, no membership of ANY club necessary, and be issued with an identification number, and power kite at Ainsdale [within the designated zone] to their hearts content

This is never likely to happen at Hoylake because Wirral Borough Council are strapped for cash, hence don't have the staff or the wish to control their own beach, so wish to obsolve themselves of the responsibility by issuing a restrictive license to Wirral Sandyacht Club......so if the P00P ever hit the fan at Hoy it could be the club in the dock not the council

[tigertim]

Thanks for taking the time to answer so many awkward questions Joolz. Much appreciated.

One other question, not necessarily directed your way. The Fed affiliation fee we pay, is this effectively another "club" membership fee? If so what services does it provide for its members?

[Jo0lz]

Now that CLSC have left the FED... I assume from 31/12/07 will the Zurich policy be in place for 01/01/2008???

It was in place in early October....

HuH..?
Thought you just had a QUOTE in place

That's not the same as paying a premium and being insured . . . .

Word on the grapevine has it that you are still waiting to hear back from Zurich that they willng to honour a two month old quote for insuring your club....

[Simon Bailey]

Tim....that is a question...I do have an email that gives the justification for the fee, but alas what the email says and what the said organisation do are mutually exclusive....

[Freeman]

It was in place in early October....

HuH..?
Thought you just had a QUOTE in place

That's not the same as paying a premium and being insured . . . .

Word on the grapevine has it that you are still waiting to hear back from Zurich that they willng to honour a two month old quote for insuring your club....

Assumptions again....

Zurich have been prepared all along to honour the policy...

We are in receipt of the invoice for said cover and all will be in place for 01/01/2008

Fortunately CLSC were well prepared for the perceived outcome.....

[Freeman]

The Fed affiliation fee we pay, is this effectively another "club" membership fee? If so what services does it provide for its members?

A question that I have never heard answered.....

[Jo0lz]

Thanks for taking the time to answer so many awkward questions Joolz. Much appreciated.

One other question, not necessarily directed your way. The Fed affiliation fee we pay, is this effectively another "club" membership fee? If so what services does it provide for its members?

Tim yet another EXCELLENT question which I wish I knew the answer to myself...
Having been to my first FED AGM last month all I would say is that I was VERY disappointed at the devisive tone of the dicussion in the meeting. and left after having sat there from 11 to 4:30 none the wiser as to who, other than my own club, truly represented my wind powered sports interests.

The way to change the FED would be to have at least one Class 8 [Kite Buggier] member on the committee..something the out going FED Insurance Officer himself suggested.....
SO the PKA proposed Toni
She got voted in to the Insuracne Officer position unanimously

Then a day later an email appeared from the PKA..[see earlier in this thread] and within two weeks I feel she felt so under pressure to rush the Zurich Insurance cover in by the end of the year she had little choice but to resign.

This leaves us FED Members with the default Perkins Slade Insurance and more than one missed opportunity to change the FED from within...which is a REAL pity

[Freeman]

It's a damn shame that the Zurich cover wasn't ironed out in time for the FED to run with it in 2008, as it would've hopefully started the whole unification process for a true representative body for all land based windsports...

But then again, I feel this is an ideal that will never happen, as at present, there are far too many factions, with differing interests, to ever agree on anything for long enough to get anything sorted

[trikbitz]

Thanks for taking the time to answer so many awkward questions Joolz. Much appreciated.

One other question, not necessarily directed your way. The Fed affiliation fee we pay, is this effectively another "club" membership fee? If so what services does it provide for its members?

Tim yet another EXCELLENT question which I wish I knew the answer to myself...
Having been to my first FED AGM last month all I would say is that I was VERY disappointed at the devisive tone of the dicussion in the meeting. and left after having sat there from 11 to 4:30 none the wiser as to who, other than my own club, truly represented my wind powered sports interests.

The way to change the FED would be to have at least one Class 8 [Kite Buggier] member on the committee..something the out going FED Insurance Officer himself suggested.....
SO the PKA proposed Toni
She got voted in to the Insuracne Officer position unanimously

Then a day later an email appeared from the PKA..[see earlier in this thread] and within two weeks I feel she felt so under pressure to rush the Zurich Insurance cover in by the end of the year she had little choice but to resign.

This leaves us FED Members with the default Perkins Slade Insurance and more than one missed opportunity to change the FED from within...which is a REAL pity

In defence of Toni she was steam rolled into a position that she did not want to take up. Toni works in insurance and from the onset said the time scale to get RA's in place was to short and could lead to exclusions/ price hikes.
But how good is the FED insurance from what I understand from the AGM it is a regatta insurance please correct me if I am wrong How does that cover me If I'm the only guy on Hoylake and need to make a claim will the insurance step away

[Jo0lz]

John
I had an incling at the AGM that poor Toni was effectively Press Ganged into it as a snap reaction to Martin's challenge for C8 to put "there money where there mouth is" and take a position on the FED Committee

It's a shame she felt sufficent pressure to have to resign
I walked away from the AGM with very positive thoughts for the future insurance
Only to have that bubble BuRsT
a day later by Mark Hoylands email

Anyway all that aside.....
It would be nice to see us ALL make an effort towards the possibility of better insurance for 2009
OK it may mean special retraining [+ additional costs] for all the Risk Assessments covering the existing FED sites to be redone, but it could also offer the kiting community the opportunity of our undertaknig RAs for new sites to be covered under a better FED Insurance Policy


As for your level of cover under the Perkins Slade Policy . . .
as I have always understood it this covers you for all wind powered land sports on designated sites, whether racing in a national regatta, or a club event, or simple recreational stuff ,as long as its a FED site with RAs in place. So this year it will not cover Pembrey or Pendine

When I go and buggy elsewhere, or even static fly, say at West Kirby or New Brighton, I'm then covered by my personal BPKA membership insurance as an INDIVIDUAL

SO I have to buy TWO lots of insurance
So WHAT?
That's peanuts compared to say
a set of second hand wheels and some new tyres
See you soon
Jo0Lz

P.S.

If I'm the only guy on Hoylake and need to make a claim will the insurance step away

Errmmmm if you're the only bloke on the beach you cannot exactly claim against yourself..?? The insurance is for claims AGAINST you......so if you were out there on your own and you say ran over our nasty terrier who runs across the beach I could probably claim for a new dog from the FED Policy

P.P.S. I have heard just this evening that the Perkins Slade Policy for 2008 includes pilot-2-pilot incident cover...with an EXCESS though...just in case you and I thought it a good idea to run into each other and each claim for a new buggy on the insurance... :lol:

[Kiteboyza]

It was in place in early October....

HuH..?
Thought you just had a QUOTE in place

That's not the same as paying a premium and being insured . . . .

Word on the grapevine has it that you are still waiting to hear back from Zurich that they willng to honour a two month old quote for insuring your club....

that word would be Andy Parr propoganda....the FED sec! He has helped the image of the FED, not!

ski bus is leaving.....laters

[Tuffty]

When I go and buggy elsewhere, or even static fly, say at West Kirby or New Brighton, I'm then covered by my personal BPKA membership insurance as an INDIVIDUAL

SO I have to buy TWO lots of insurance
So WHAT?
That's peanuts compared to say
a set of second hand wheels and some new tyres
See you soon
Jo0Lz

Me too, small price to pay in this $hitty world of compensation culture

[bulletmagnet]

HuH..?
Thought you just had a QUOTE in place

That's not the same as paying a premium and being insured . . . .

Word on the grapevine has it that you are still waiting to hear back from Zurich that they willng to honour a two month old quote for insuring your club....

Assumptions again....

Zurich have been prepared all along to honour the policy...

We are in receipt of the invoice for said cover and all will be in place for 01/01/2008

Fortunately CLSC were well prepared for the perceived outcome.....

Just remember 'Prior Preparation and Planning Prevents Pi55 Poor Performance'

CLSC were prepared for the FED AGM the PKA weren't.

[andya]

In defence of Toni she was steam rolled into a position that she did not want to take up. Toni works in insurance and from the onset said the time scale to get RA's in place was to short and could lead to exclusions/ price hikes.

Can I ask for clarification here from the PKA ... Was the sugestion:

• There are no existing Risk assesments for the main sites in question, and it would take to long to write them?
• Or reformating the existing ten or so RA's would take to long (allowing for training of the person doing it?)

Because I don't buy either of those. There still is time for 2008. A fifth of them are already going to be sorted for 2008.

Am I wrong?

[Offshore]

In defence of Toni she was steam rolled into a position that she did not want to take up. Toni works in insurance and from the onset said the time scale to get RA's in place was to short and could lead to exclusions/ price hikes.

Can I ask for clarification here from the PKA ... Was the sugestion:

• There are no existing Risk assesments for the main sites in question, and it would take to long to write them?
• Or reformating the existing ten or so RA's would take to long (allowing for training of the person doing it?)

Because I don't buy either of those. There still is time for 2008. A fifth of them are already going to be sorted for 2008.

Am I wrong?

You have no idea how slowly insurance companies work... (I deal with them on a day to day basis!) and take into account that there is almost a 3 week shut down in the insurance world over the Christmas period....

So if you trained someone this weekend, who would then hot foot it around all the sites and then write the RAs up....

With the best will in the world it would be a long shot to say the very least...

[Simon Bailey]

Just remember 'Prior Preparation and Planning Prevents Pi55 Poor Performance'

CLSC were prepared for the FED AGM the PKA weren't.

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with 6 P's, the PKA were not supplied with said information prior to the FED AGM, so were not able to make preparations of any kind.

If people think that the insurance, with all the risk assessments in place (for all sites) and all clauses worked out and small print read and understood, etc could be sorted within the time between the FED AGM and the 01/01/2008 then they are deluding themselves.

[andya]

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with 6 P's, the PKA were not supplied with said information prior to the FED AGM, so were not able to make preparations of any kind.

I see your point Simon, as an Associate member the PKA is not served well by the Fed consitution. Not only does the PKA not have any voting strength at the Fed, as you are not an affiliated club you do not have rights to see any agendas or minutes of meetings.

Is this what happend in this case?

If people think that the insurance, with all the risk assessments in place (for all sites) and all clauses worked out and small print read and understood, etc could be sorted within the time between the FED AGM and the 01/01/2008 then they are deluding themselves.

Disagree, it was all about planning. There was time from late summer... there isn't now.

[Simon Bailey]

Andy, I shall re-iterate. The FED and the PKA were not party to the information prior to the recent meeting.

Exactly how could they make preperations based on zero info? I am interested in your thougths on how this could have been accomplished with no details?

[tigertim]

Guys, can we keep the heat out of the thread? Its always a contentious issue this, but we seem to be gaining a fuller picture here (at least I am as a pilot with no organisational involvement) which can only be a good thing.

Another question! Club/Corporate cover aside, whats the difference between the cover Perkins Slade provides to the Fed and to the BPKA?
http://www.bpka.co.uk/BPKAImages/PKSFCover.pdf

Moving on from John's point about individual's at Hoy, surely I could claim under either policy if necessary?

[andya]

Another question! Club/Corporate cover aside, whats the difference between the cover Perkins Slade provides to the Fed and to the BPKA?
http://www.bpka.co.uk/BPKAImages/PKSFCover.pdf

Fed 07 Insurance details ... http://www.bfslyc.org.uk/files/InsPack%20Jan07.rtf

My personal two second summary is its - pre notified event based third party cover, but main club site cover is presumed.


@ Simon - don't know, questions asked, awaiting reply.

[Freeman]

As far as I'm aware, details of the Zurich policy sourced by CLSC were provided to the FED well in advance of the FED AGM.

What happened after that, I don't know.

[tigertim]

Thanks Andy - obviously this is not the actual insurance document but rather the Insurance Secretary's interpretation - brave man!

This is interesting:

"VERY IMPORTANT; Casual sailing/karting
Any individuals sailing at any location which has not been pre arranged or approved by the Fed or a club would not be covered by the Fed insurance. If it is not an official event it is not covered.

Our policy is not a sail anywhere anytime policy. Other organisations do claim to offer such policies but it is not the Fed’s responsibility to recommend such policies as the validity of such policies may be challenged if an incident were to occur."

So would I be right in presuming in Hoylake's case, the WSYC designate all available tidal sailing dates as an official event? If not, then when I sail outside of club, national and open events (i.e. a mid week session on my own) then I'm not actually covered by the Fed's insurance?

[Simon Bailey]

Colin, to whom were they supplied and on what date.

I am not trying to discredit your work, but I am interested to know if someone at the FED had this information prior to the AGM, but sat on it.

I will be deeply annoyed, and would be very vocal, were I to find that people were in possession of the information prior to the AGM, so that it could have been sorted, or have any personal financial interest in the taking of the policy with Zurich - who are not a natural choice for sports cover - In fact are self confessed at not having experience in this area.