FED buggy racers

[andya]

Andy, I shall re-iterate. The FED and the PKA were not party to the information prior to the recent meeting.

Exactly how could they make preperations based on zero info? I am interested in your thougths on how this could have been accomplished with no details?

As far as I'm aware, details of the Zurich policy sourced by CLSC were provided to the FED well in advance of the FED AGM.

What happened after that, I don't know.

Thanks Col, thought so ... so we are getting closer ... its either:

1 / The Fed didin't distribute the Insurance details. Andy Parr or Fed club Secs would have to comment on that.
2/ As only an Associate member the PKA didn't recieve them. PKA or Andy Parr would have to comment.

No heat, or arguement here ... just asking questions, trying to understand ...

[andya]

Agreed Tim very interesting ...

The other bit is further down ...

The broker has been provided with the following statement:
a) Clubs using on their main site; sailing/training/practicing/racing/associated activities could take place anytime for members and visiting members from other clubs with permission from host club and presumed it was unnecessary to send a detailed programme. We consider it unreasonable to specify every actual date of practice/race at every club, but your cooperation would be appreciated in keeping the insurer informed so that they understand the level of activity which is taking place.

Be interesting what the brookers official relpy to this statement was, as my insurance for casual sailing on Pembrey this year hangs on the repsonse..

Thanks Andy - obviously this is not the actual insurance document but rather the Insurance Secretary's interpretation - brave man!

This is interesting:

"VERY IMPORTANT; Casual sailing/karting
Any individuals sailing at any location which has not been pre arranged or approved by the Fed or a club would not be covered by the Fed insurance. If it is not an official event it is not covered.

Our policy is not a sail anywhere anytime policy. Other organisations do claim to offer such policies but it is not the Fed’s responsibility to recommend such policies as the validity of such policies may be challenged if an incident were to occur."

So would I be right in presuming in Hoylake's case, the WSYC designate all available tidal sailing dates as an official event? If not, then when I sail outside of club, national and open events (i.e. a mid week session on my own) then I'm not actually covered by the Fed's insurance?

[Fluffy-lou]

<snip> with Zurich <snip> In fact are self confessed at not having experience in this area.

That statement surprises me - as Zurich have been SWATK's insurers for some time... so kite sports are not unknown to them.

[Muglai]

In defence of Toni she was steam rolled into a position that she did not want to take up. Toni works in insurance and from the onset said the time scale to get RA's in place was to short and could lead to exclusions/ price hikes.

Can I ask for clarification here from the PKA ... Was the sugestion:

• There are no existing Risk assesments for the main sites in question, and it would take to long to write them?
• Or reformating the existing ten or so RA's would take to long (allowing for training of the person doing it?)

Because I don't buy either of those. There still is time for 2008. A fifth of them are already going to be sorted for 2008.

Am I wrong?

All of the above should be addressed to the FED and not the PKA
We do not control insurance within the FED now or in the past


Mark Hoyland
K248

[Freeman]

FED clubs have to supply a 'programme of events' at the start of each year, I would assume that all clubs will list all possible dates for sailing, as well as any planned events - hence you're presumably covered for whenever you sail

As for to who the Zurich details were supplied to, I don't know. Dieter is either bored stupid in a departure lounge or flying high across the Atlantic, so not much help either way. Present ins officer would probably be the best person to ask.

I would've thought that as an associate group, the PKA will not have necessarily been given prior notice.

I'm assuming that:
a) As the FED were unlikely to vote on a policy on first sight at the AGM
b) Ins Officer had already been talking to Zurich prior to AGM

That the FED had details of the policy prior to the AGM

[andya]

Sorry Mark, I can't get my simple brain round this ... can you expain the following two statements you have made...

Thanks.

All of the above should be addressed to the FED and not the PKA
We do not control insurance within the FED now or in the past
Mark Hoyland
K248

Sunday, 25 November 2007
Ref: PKA Elected Insurance Officer BFSLYC
To All BFSLYC committee and club members,

After further consultation with members of the PKA Committee it has been decided that we are not prepared to endorse a member of our committee being responsible for sanctioning the prospective Zurich insurance policy until further investigation is completed. We believe 3 weeks is insufficient time to fully investigate the legalities and suitability of such a policy for members of the Federation

Until such investigation is completed we recommend that the Federation continues with the current insurer for 2008 ...

[andya]

... I will be deeply annoyed, and would be very vocal, were I to find that people ...... have any personal financial interest in the taking of the policy with Zurich

I know a few people on here know I am a former Zurich Insurance Employee. However after I left 4 years ago I have no finacial interests at all in Zurich (beyond a Pension), and have sold all my shares in the company a while back.

Just wanted to go public to prevent any wild rumours ...

[Tuffty]

This is interesting:

"VERY IMPORTANT; Casual sailing/karting
Any individuals sailing at any location which has not been pre arranged or approved by the Fed or a club would not be covered by the Fed insurance. If it is not an official event it is not covered.

Our policy is not a sail anywhere anytime policy. Other organisations do claim to offer such policies but it is not the Fed’s responsibility to recommend such policies as the validity of such policies may be challenged if an incident were to occur."

So would I be right in presuming in Hoylake's case, the WSYC designate all available tidal sailing dates as an official event? If not, then when I sail outside of club, national and open events (i.e. a mid week session on my own) then I'm not actually covered by the Fed's insurance?

I would have taken this as Hoy is a fed beach so you are covered whenever you choose to sail

[trikbitz]

Thanks Andy - obviously this is not the actual insurance document but rather the Insurance Secretary's interpretation - brave man!

This is interesting:

"VERY IMPORTANT; Casual sailing/karting
Any individuals sailing at any location which has not been pre arranged or approved by the Fed or a club would not be covered by the Fed insurance. If it is not an official event it is not covered.

Our policy is not a sail anywhere anytime policy. Other organisations do claim to offer such policies but it is not the Fed’s responsibility to recommend such policies as the validity of such policies may be challenged if an incident were to occur."

So would I be right in presuming in Hoylake's case, the WSYC designate all available tidal sailing dates as an official event? If not, then when I sail outside of club, national and open events (i.e. a mid week session on my own) then I'm not actually covered by the Fed's insurance?

That was my point

[Muglai]

Sorry Mark, I can't get my simple brain round this ... can you expain the following two statements you have made...

Thanks.

Sunday, 25 November 2007
Ref: PKA Elected Insurance Officer BFSLYC
To All BFSLYC committee and club members,

After further consultation with members of the PKA Committee it has been decided that we are not prepared to endorse a member of our committee being responsible for sanctioning the prospective Zurich insurance policy until further investigation is completed. We believe 3 weeks is insufficient time to fully investigate the legalities and suitability of such a policy for members of the Federation

Until such investigation is completed we recommend that the Federation continues with the current insurer for 2008 ...

The PKA advised after consultation that it would not be advisable for a member of the PKA committee to stand for such a post
Protection of our committee members is paramount, need I remind people of the persons who incurred huge court costs as a result of the Lytham accident, for reasons we know not of the full story, and who are/were members of the FED.
We recommended not told the FED to continue with its current insurer
Vindication of this is now justified as the Fed are continuing with its present insurer for 2008
PS. Please dont forget we are volunteers and are doing this to the best of our abilities and intentions- but if there are persons out there that feel we would be better replaced because of experience etc -then be my guest!and I think I say this for all of us!

Mark Hoyland
K248

[Freeman]

Thanks Andy - obviously this is not the actual insurance document but rather the Insurance Secretary's interpretation - brave man!

This is interesting:

"VERY IMPORTANT; Casual sailing/karting
Any individuals sailing at any location which has not been pre arranged or approved by the Fed or a club would not be covered by the Fed insurance. If it is not an official event it is not covered.

Our policy is not a sail anywhere anytime policy. Other organisations do claim to offer such policies but it is not the Fed’s responsibility to recommend such policies as the validity of such policies may be challenged if an incident were to occur."

So would I be right in presuming in Hoylake's case, the WSYC designate all available tidal sailing dates as an official event? If not, then when I sail outside of club, national and open events (i.e. a mid week session on my own) then I'm not actually covered by the Fed's insurance?

That was my point

As previously posted

FED clubs have to supply a 'programme of events' at the start of each year, I would assume that all clubs will list all possible dates for sailing, as well as any planned events - hence you're presumably covered for whenever you sail.

I say presumably, as it all depends on what 'programme of events' is submitted by each club to the FED, and by the FED to Perkins Slade.

The Devil's in the details

[Jo0lz]

.....I say presumably, as it all depends on what 'programme of events' is submitted by each club to the FED, and by the FED to Perkins Slade.

The Devil's in the details

EVENT NOTIFICATION
wwwWWWEEEeeeLLL....at the FED AGM I seem to remember the Out Going Insurance Officer [Now Temp Insurance Officer] mentioning that we don't necessarily need to advise Perkins Slade of EVERY event....on the basis that their continued experience from previous years with insuring our sport has given them a good understanding of the level of use of the FED sites...though obviously something out of the ordinary like the Euros or the 24Hour would naturally be advised and discussed in more detail.

FED SITE RISK ASSESSMENTS
These are obviously all already in place
BUT Zurich wish them to be all in the same format; so they would need to be redone AND they expect to charge over a GRAND to train our people to do them in a manner they would find exceptable.

I would be interested to hear from someone on the CLSC Committee about whether or not Zurich are accepting their existing RA's as they are???????? As that could be a useful lever for us in future........

ZURICH +SWATK
I'm now more interested to hear of anyones experiences of this particular relationship......as it gives me further hope for better FED Insurance in 2009

Jo0Lz

[spooky]

FED SITE RISK ASSESSMENTS
These are obviously all already in place
BUT Zurich wish them to be all in the same format; so they would need to be redone AND they expect to charge over a GRAND to train our people to do them in a manner they would find exceptable.

A GRAND?

Out of interest is that all the sites in the same format so easier for them to relate one site to another?
Or all the sites in THEIR format? To fit in with their system?

Surely they should be able to provide you with a a sample copy of the format needed, so provided your assesors are IoSH/NeBOSH trained then they should be acceptable?

We are insured at work by Zurich for all our lifting, fixing points, cutting equipment.
All he does is a visual, check the log books are up to date and on his way and WE pay him to do that!!!!


Good luck, Jon

[Freeman]

Zurich have accepted CLSC's risk assessments as previously supplied to the FED. They have not asked for us to go on any courses or to provide them in a different format.

We are currently working on a number of other RA's to enable us to offer members a wider selection of locations to sail at.

Sorry, just for clarity, I'm the CLSC Treasurer, and have been working with D on this since July.

[andy55d]

Accepting non-Fed competitors at events
Organisers of Fed events ie PKA, Supercup etc can accept competitors who are not Fed members providing that they can provide proof that they are currently covered by an equivalent insurance policy offered by an alternative organisation ie the PKSF and they have an appropriate sailing/karting licence.

This new ruling passed at the 2006 agm does not undermine the principle that all Fed members must have Fed insurance.

Just a thought reference 'events'. If a normal flying day is classed as an event according to the FED as discussed in previous posts eg. during the week on your own flying, then any appropriate insurance and a current race license is valid at a Fed beach, so long as you are a member of the club that has access to the beach you should be covered to fly.

Therefore, you do not need to purchase the FED insurance unless you want to race for your country.

Have I got this right or not

[Jo0lz]

...Therefore, you do not need to purchase the FED insurance unless you want to race for your country.

Have I got this right or not

I just yesterday asked a similar question by email to the FED Temp Insurance Officer
Because as WSYC SEC I have a duty of care to know on what basis our club can accept non-FED members on our FED Site from 01/01/2008.......

WSYC also need to double check the insurance liability issues of the precise wording of our license with Wirral Boro Council.....

Jo0Lz

[andy55d]

Thanks for the response Joolz. It will be interesting to see what the FED and the license says.

[tigertim]

This new ruling passed at the 2006 agm does not undermine the principle that all Fed members must have Fed insurance.

How doesn't it undermine this... "principle"?

So... with BPKA insurance I can race PKA and Supercup, I can even race internationally provided this in accordance with my "association". I can do all of this without being a member of the Fed or having Fed insurance.

Now I know there may be organisational matters of control which could prove difficult for WSYC, but just looking at the insurance, I can't see why I couldn't opt out of Fed membership and insurance, but still be a member of WSYC and sail at Hoylake with my BPKA insurance.

[Offshore]

This new ruling passed at the 2006 agm does not undermine the principle that all Fed members must have Fed insurance.

How doesn't it undermine this... "principle"?

So... with BPKA insurance I can race PKA and Supercup, I can even race internationally provided this in accordance with my "association". I can do all of this without being a member of the Fed or having Fed insurance.

Now I know there may be organisational matters of control which could prove difficult for WSYC, but just looking at the insurance, I can't see why I couldn't opt out of Fed membership and insurance, but still be a member of WSYC and sail at Hoylake with my BPKA insurance.

Tim we chatted about this yesterday... if you see someone on the bar with a K number that corresponds with a WSYC member and they are on the list of paid members you know they are insured... IF you resort to individual insurance how do you or I know that person has paid their individual insurance.... now there is a dilema

Take for example... way in the mists of time I used to shoot arrows for an archery club... I paid:

1. Club fees
2. Insurance
3. Affiliation fees

Eek it sounds just like the FED !!

I also said... that it's amazing that folk will fly around with a £4000 quiver and moan like **** over a few quid... it's just like reading entry fee queries for races in the events thread...

BTW fishing is a second hobby of mine....

I pay an Environment Agency Rod Licence for £25

then:

• A membership of the particular association that looks after the general welfare of the particular fish I like to hook... it provides me with insurance
• A pay two separate fishing association fees for separate rivers/lakes which also includes insurance

If you really wanted to you could say stuff em all I'll let my liability insurance on my household policy look after them all...

Question: Do you think any of those organisations would wear it?

Nah... don't think so!

PS I thought that if you were a member of the PKA then you paid FED insurance if you weren't a member of a FED club because they were associated to the FED... I think I have that right... do correct me if I'm wrong

The PKA then provides a list of insured members to the FED along with the FED fee they have collected... Tim, when it boils down to it, it is all based on trust... however, clubs/associations do have a duty of care and that means taking the onus from the individual and ensuring members are insured... that means at events as well!

This is a rather pithy subject... utopia would be one insurance... however, there have to be controls for everyone's benefit.

[scud4984]

So at the moment its just ppl like me that arent moaning..
Im just glad i can carry on flying



Interesting thread tho

[Simon Bailey]

Scud, have you lost the plot?...at which point is this thread interesting?

It's just the same old conversations that have been occuring for years, with the added excitment of the Zurich insurance added to the mix...

Here's the situation as I see it (please quote and correct if incorrect):

1) Fed insurance - £15 - Policy only applicable to venues that have had RA's and are listed as approved sites with the FED. Additional venues require an RA and proposal to FED to be included on the sites list.

2) Zurich insurance - £15 - Fly anywhere policy where the land owners written consent has been obtained, for the venue and has had a RA done and filed with Zurich.

3) BPKA - £15 - Fly anywhere policy where the land owners permission is not explicitly denied (edit TFS).


Now I know that this is jumping the gun (how unusual for that to happen here!), but if the above statements are true, then what is the difference between the FED and ZURICHS policies? If they both only cover venues that have had RA's done, then the Zurich isn't really a fly anywhere policy, as any potential venue needs to have an RA done and be added to the list of approved sites, isn't that how the FED system already works?

This whole situation seem to be either a money making excercise for someone, or it's because of a personal attitude against the FED. Now I am not a true believer in the FED, but I can see no benefit in muddying the waters by introducing YET ANOTHER insurance policy.

I think we had a balance with the FED and BPKA insurances. Both organisations respected the value of the others policy and whereever they could would allow the use of the others cover at it's events, etc.

This meant that those that wanted to pursue FED activities could do and those that wanted to pursue BPKA activities could also do so, but both had the knowledge that they could attend an event run by the other organisation and participate.

What is CLSC's position on accepting other insurance for events (not normal sailing)?

Oh god, this was only meant to be a quick post...damn...lol

[The Flyin Scotsman]

3) BPKA - £15 - Fly anywhere policy where the land owners permission has been granted.

Si, I think you'll find that the BPKA's policy is a fly anywhere policy where permission is not explicitly denied (not necessarily had permission attained for)

[big-jon]

Simon, I think you are very correct in your statements, as someone who has been working closely with the Fed insurance officer for 4 years now and has a lot of conversations with him and has also looked closely at all the insurance policies (Fed+BPKA) to ensure I am covered at events.

The BPKA and the Fed accept each others policies at events and we do have an agreement to make this work, I have been in contact with Mell recently and he re-iterated this and said he was very happy for the two organsations to work together.

A good post Simon and I agree with pretty much it all!!

These are my views and not those of the organisation I represent.

[Jo0lz]

....(please quote and correct if incorrect):

1) Fed insurance - £15 - Policy only applicable to venues that have had RA's and are listed as approved sites with the FED. Additional venues require an RA and proposal to FED to be included on the sites list.

Also it is ORGANISATION based so it covers insurance of the club, the actions of its officers in their role, ALSO more importantly include EVENT INSURANCE for SuperCup, PKA, Club Regattas etc..etc...hence why it has to be Club and site specific where land owners permission is on record and RAs existing
By the way it looks like for a big club like WSYC this insurance cost will be going down for 2008

3) BPKA - £15 - Fly anywhere policy where the land owners permission has been granted.

Is INDIVIDUAL insurance based on protecting you personally against any claims under public lialblility...and as pointed out above covers any location where permission has not been expressly denied.....so actual land owner consent not required.....also no RAs required either I believe [but please correct me if I'm wrong on that one]

2) Zurich insurance - £15 - Fly anywhere policy where the land owners written consent has been obtained, for the venue and has had a RA done and filed with Zurich.

ON the face of it the Zurich policy looks simialr to the FED Perkins Slade one...BUT the important question is is it ORGANISATIONAL or INDIVIDUAL based....and how much will it cost to redo a consistent set of RAs for all the sites and possible additional sites??????

What is CLSC's position on accepting other insurance for events (not normal sailing)?

I stand to be corrected . . . .but is it not the case that CLSC are effectively generating a position where you have no choice but to be a CLSC member to buggy on Pendine or Pembrey???

Jo0Lz

P.S. Scud must be 3 sheets to the wind if he thinks this is INTERESTING..

[spooky]

Also it is ORGANISATION based so it covers insurance of the club, the actions of its officers in their role, ALSO more importantly include EVENT INSURANCE for SuperCup, PKA, Club Regattas etc..etc...hence why it has to be Club and site specific where land owners permission is on record and RAs existing

That was my understanding, so how come all the problems at Lytham St Anns reguarding the claims?
I know that is a slightly different topic, but has had impact on ALL of use, as even my local council used it as an argument to try and ban us from a playing field

Jon