FED buggy racers

[Snowman Taff]

Couldn't agree more mate.

I agree Garry... something we've all said for a long time... but you now have to add CLSC to your list

Why the digs at CLSC all the time????

Cheap shots are a piece of **** to deliver. Or am I just reading it all wrong. Seems to me that CLSC seem to have become the bad guys on all this. When nothing could be further from the truth. We as club tried to bring everyone together under one insurance policy that would cover everyone, we hoped the FED would adopt this and thus CLSC would have remained in the FED. The FED secretary himself was involved in this process and even voted the SAME as EVERY other CLSC member for the new policy. CLSC had zero control over what went on at the FED AGM and has occurred since.

To be totally honest and this is my view only, the further CLSC is away from the FED now the better.

[trikbitz]

the PKA currently has an unusual position within FED as neither a club nor part of the main organisation, and that is something that needs to be addressed.

Completly agree with your post Boater, and in particular I have been thinking a lot about the point above ...

I see three options:

1/ Get the Fed constitution changed so instead of voting strenght been down to number of licenced club pilots. Voting strength is simply by total number of club and association members.


2/ Everyone works within their respective Fed clubs to push the majotrity class 8 view through the Club, and then via the club rep onto the Fed.

3/ Follow the SPKA and IPKA, with new coutry specific Parakarting associations (Welsh and English PKA's) becoming directly associated members to FISLY. Bypassing the British (now English) Fed.


The problem is:
1/ Is impossible due to the voting system (its the Liberal/PR thing)
2/ With the departure of CLSC from the Fed this also seems unlikley due to the lesser numbers.

This leaves us with 3/ - National PKA's directly associated to FISLY.

Could it work?? Any other options???

Use the KBA link to FISLY

[trikbitz]

I agree Garry... something we've all said for a long time... but you now have to add CLSC to your list

Why the digs at CLSC all the time????

CLSC had zero control over what went on at the FED AGM and has occurred since.

To be totally honest and this is my view only, the further CLSC is away from the FED now the better.

That is wrong Taff D was at the FED AGM and was asked to take over as the insurance officer (Fact I was sat next to him) This would have been a good move as out of us he knew more about the Zurich than any of us. Had he taken up the post things could well have been very different.

I'm going to finish building a buggy now

[andy999]

Why the digs at CLSC all the time????

Cheap shots are a piece of **** to deliver. Or am I just reading it all wrong. Seems to me that CLSC seem to have become the bad guys on all this. When nothing could be further from the truth. We as club tried to bring everyone together under one insurance policy that would cover everyone, we hoped the FED would adopt this and thus CLSC would have remained in the FED. The FED secretary himself was involved in this process and even voted the SAME as EVERY other CLSC member for the new policy. CLSC had zero control over what went on at the FED AGM and has occurred since.

To be totally honest and this is my view only, the further CLSC is away from the FED now the better.

Martin
I'm sure your just reading it wrong. I think alot of the comments on here at the minute are just being blown out of proportion.

CLSC is a great Club with its members interest at heart. I will be rejoining for 2008 and look forward to some great events.

CLSC keep up the good work and the 'Kiting team spirit'.

[andya]

Use the KBA link to FISLY

Forgive my ignorance ... what is the http://www.kitebuggy-association.org/ link to FISLY??

They are not listed as members of FISLY?
Full members Associated members Corresponding members ????

Another Euro possible is the cooperation coming out of ... http://www.eurocups.org/intro.php ?????

[Snowman Taff]

Why the digs at CLSC all the time????

CLSC had zero control over what went on at the FED AGM and has occurred since.

To be totally honest and this is my view only, the further CLSC is away from the FED now the better.

That is wrong Taff D was at the FED AGM and was asked to take over as the insurance officer (Fact I was sat next to him) This would have been a good move as out of us he knew more about the Zurich than any of us. Had he taken up the post things could well have been very different.

I'm going to finish building a buggy now

You can't class that as CLSC having any control over things really Jon, to expect D to take on even more than he already has with running CLSC. I would have refused in his position too. He did loads of work getting some different insurance for us all in the beginning, and involved everyone he could outside of CLSC to try and get us all together and moving forward, to now knock him if anyone is for refusing to take on any more is unfair.

[Offshore]

That is wrong Taff D was at the FED AGM and was asked to take over as the insurance officer (Fact I was sat next to him) This would have been a good move as out of us he knew more about the Zurich than any of us. Had he taken up the post things could well have been very different.

I'm going to finish building a buggy now

You can't class that as CLSC having any control over things really Jon, to expect D to take on even more than he already has with running CLSC. I would have refused in his position too. He did loads of work getting some different insurance for us all in the beginning, and involved everyone he could outside of CLSC to try and get us all together and moving forward, to now knock him if anyone is for refusing to take on any more is unfair.

Martin... I wasn't having a dig just highlighting in a light hearted way that effectively in 2008 there is another group to consider... next stop Welsh Assembly eh!

[Snowman Taff]

You can't class that as CLSC having any control over things really Jon, to expect D to take on even more than he already has with running CLSC. I would have refused in his position too. He did loads of work getting some different insurance for us all in the beginning, and involved everyone he could outside of CLSC to try and get us all together and moving forward, to now knock him if anyone is for refusing to take on any more is unfair.

Martin... I wasn't having a dig just highlighting in a light hearted way that effectively in 2008 there is another group to consider... next stop Welsh Assembly eh!

As I said Dave I was probably reading it wrong. **** day and apologies

[Sparhawk]

**** day and apologies

Dont you be apologising to the likes of HIM. He's one of them

[Snowman Taff]

**** day and apologies

Dont you be apologising to the likes of HIM. He's one of them

I know but he can't help it, it's part of the WSYC initiation they have Paul Mckenna tapes you are forced to listen too

[flydad]

Dont you be apologising to the likes of HIM. He's one of them

I know but he can't help it, it's part of the WSYC initiation they have Paul Mckenna tapes you are forced to listen too

Surely your not advocating Tom Jones instead

[Snowman Taff]

I know but he can't help it, it's part of the WSYC initiation they have Paul Mckenna tapes you are forced to listen too

Surely your not advocating Tom Jones instead

So what's wrong with my uncle Tom then huh....you want some too

[flydad]

Use the KBA link to FISLY

Forgive my ignorance ... what is the http://www.kitebuggy-association.org/ link to FISLY??

They are not listed as members of FISLY?
Full members Associated members Corresponding members ????

Another Euro possible is the cooperation coming out of ... http://www.eurocups.org/intro.php ?????

Mainly because things progress just as slowly if not more so in the international community. We (SPKA) were accepted as corresponding members of the FISLY over a year ago. The KBA proposal was done earlier this year and other than a bit of paperwork, they too will be corresponding members shortly. The KBA is set up to try and give a unified class 8 voice to the FISLY but it has no facilities to offer any form of insurance, that has to be sourced its self by each member country.

[flydad]

Surely your not advocating Tom Jones instead

So what's wrong with my uncle Tom then huh....you want some too

Just as long as the grass is greener Martin

[Snowman Taff]

So what's wrong with my uncle Tom then huh....you want some too

Just as long as the grass is greener Martin

It's always greener Tom..we do live in lovely WET Wales after all

[trikbitz]

That is wrong Taff D was at the FED AGM and was asked to take over as the insurance officer (Fact I was sat next to him) This would have been a good move as out of us he knew more about the Zurich than any of us. Had he taken up the post things could well have been very different.

I'm going to finish building a buggy now

You can't class that as CLSC having any control over things really Jon, to expect D to take on even more than he already has with running CLSC. I would have refused in his position too. He did loads of work getting some different insurance for us all in the beginning, and involved everyone he could outside of CLSC to try and get us all together and moving forward, to now knock him if anyone is for refusing to take on any more is unfair.

I'm not nocking D as I would not do it either but it would have have given CLSC a seat on the FED

[Boater]

Use the KBA link to FISLY

Forgive my ignorance ... what is the http://www.kitebuggy-association.org/ link to FISLY??

My understanding is that as a result of petitioning by class 8 reps in various countries, the KBA was set up as a specialist committee to advise FISLY on class 8 specific issues, which are alien to the majority of the main FISLY committee. It is really a new name for the class 8 FISLY reps from each member country, but it does give them a chance to talk to each other about class 8 issues and make decisions outside the main FISLY meetings. My understanding is that once KBA have voted on a resolution it is effectively accepted and all the main committee will do is ratify it and enter the necessary changes into ISARR.

In my understanding it is similar to the position PKA was supposed to be in relation to the FED when it started. Unfortunately KBA seem to be intent on distancing themselves from FISLY, perhaps aiming for a similar awkward limbo state as the PKA has been left in.

The PKA does have a fresh committee itself of current racers so hopefully it won't keep them from racing themselves and getting fed up with the whole thing, and they will find a way to sort out the long term stalemate. Time will tell, but I don't think attacking them in the forums will make them want to stick with it for very long.

Tom (Flydad) and I have our differences despite being good friends and both being highly supportive of SPKA. Personally I never used to think the SPKA needed to be entirely independant, I always thought there was potential in having 4 national associations for class 8 within FED, and to be honest I have often felt that it has more to do with the "auld enemy" mentality on this side of the border. HOWEVER, if all were part of FED, then we would only have 2 reps in FISLY between the 4 nations, and they would quite likely not be class 8 sailors. Now with the KBA each FISLY member country gets 2 reps on KBA, so by being independant, but sharing similar views (on everything but the union) we actually have the potential to have 8 reps in the KBA, which could be useful if other members are likely to try and bully the association as has been suggested by some people off the record. Not to mention of course that IPKA and SPKA have growing fleets and a good calendar of race events making them worthwhile entities in their own right.

So the writing is on the wall, the WPKA are inevitable if not imminent. I think the most important thing with this sporting independence is to maintain the 'special relationships' that have grown from the union because despite national differences we have more in common with each other than we do with most of the mainland europeans.

You see once the can of worms is opened they keep spilling out! The problem is truly international - CLSC certainly haven't started it, if anything they are the last to make the move, because I beleive that in England the PKA and FED are the best future for the sport, and I can't see English clubs following.

[tigertim]

I know but he can't help it, it's part of the WSYC initiation they have Paul Mckenna tapes you are forced to listen too

Must have been played to my deaf ear.

Jim - you made some good points there, somewhere amongst all those words

Is anyone thoroughly bored of this thread now? I'd quite like to delete it, not because it hasn't served a purpose but simply because its probably time to move on.

I appreciate some people have contributed a lot here, so unless you've got any objections I'll hit the button tomorrow.

[Sparhawk]

do it

[Mouthwash]

d e l e t e r a c e h a v e f u n

[trikbitz]

Forgive my ignorance ... what is the http://www.kitebuggy-association.org/ link to FISLY??

They are not listed as members of FISLY?
Full members Associated members Corresponding members ????

Another Euro possible is the cooperation coming out of ... http://www.eurocups.org/intro.php ?????

Mainly because things progress just as slowly if not more so in the international community. We (SPKA) were accepted as corresponding members of the FISLY over a year ago. The KBA proposal was done earlier this year and other than a bit of paperwork, they too will be corresponding members shortly. The KBA is set up to try and give a unified class 8 voice to the FISLY but it has no facilities to offer any form of insurance, that has to be sourced its self by each member country.

I know they have no Insurance for us Tom but it is also a route to FISLY

[GaRRy]

The only reason we can use buggies at Hoylake at all is because the club (which is part of FED) decided to allow class 8's (as adopted by FED filtered down from FISLY) to join. As noted not all FED clubs allow class 8's. In the beginning the club officers approached the few class 8's (I think it was GaRRy, Rob, Stacey and Andy) to explain the fact that the council had licensed the beach to them for landsailing, but rather than just telling them to get lost, they encouraged them to join. I don't know if that was the first time buggiers got involved with the FED, but I have a feeling it may pre-date the formation of the PKA.

The formation of the PKA was something the FED directed in order to promote parakarting or class 8, the PKA currently has an unusual position within FED as neither a club nor part of the main organisation, and that is something that needs to be addressed.

We race (and sail) to FISLY rules, FED is our representative in FISLY and as such we get the rules from FED.

Sorry Jim your history is definately a bit out of order. PKA is the oldest buggy club in the world.

In the begining God (Peter Lynn) invented the Buggy and the people thought it was good.

Then people decided tio race and saw it was good.

Being responsible they decided to get insurance and discovered that a orgnisation existed that could offer it (FED) and they thought this was good

A name was required and the term Parakart was invented as sounding more suitable to insurance companies than Buggies and the PKA was founded (92/3 ish).

Oh I cant keep this up

The PKA was never meant to be a club the idea was that is members would all join the FED clubs that exsisted at the time but this never happened. If it had by now the FED would be class 8 controlled. Instead it carried on in its own sweet way within the FED (as a organisation within in a organisation)

Then some people felt the PKA was unduly being controlled for certain people own finacial interests (How true this is I cant say) and so the BBC was formed with its own seperate insurance (94 ish).

Up until late 90's the organisations carried on there own sweet ways with a large number of people being members of one with the other seen as the devil. But slowly as people came and went this attitude softened with quite a few people members of both.

For a while it was even going well with all the buggy clubs going under one insurance (including other newere splinter gorups like SPKA,IPKA,BKSA etc). and the FED aggreeing to this although this isolated PKA even more from FED

It was during this period that Andy Smith,Glen,Me and others joined WSYC. We were not invited and neither did we have to join. We joined because it meant we had use of the clubs facilities (2001 ish) not becuse we had to (In those days there were less buggiers and WSYC turned a blind eye to them as at time they could claim to council not their problem)

Then the accident at Lytham happened and most FED beaches got shut down while councils decided what to do. At Hoylake The council decided to more formally make a agreement with the encombered club which then included class 8 as we already had class 8 members. and at first we still could use BBC insurance. However The FED and WSYC to make sure they were covered insisted on FED insurance and we then had to take that on.

Which bring us up to today. Dont know what happened at FED meeting and dont really care but I can certainly understand why PKA/FED are in no rush to change poilicy at a few weeks notice (A lot of the issues and problems regarding the accident at Lytham were/are to do with that year FED changed policy and got stitched up by broker who had no right to sell policy.) It therefore makes sense to do due dilegence.

While I understand Dieters (and CLSC) perfect right to seek out a better policy for their members I do feel that all parties have over looked the bigger picture. Some pepole will now need 3 or more policies (FED,CLSC,BPKA,SPKA,BKSA) as there is no propoer formal agreement to accept each others policies at events. For starters you can be certain that FED will proabaly not accept CLSC insurance at events and not sure what other will do (BPKA have already stated that FED Insurance will be accepted this year for events like Wallop). So as I see it any member of CLSC will still need other insurance so dont see what has been gained by rushing into another policy. To me it would of been far better to stay in the fold and help put pressure on FED to change its attitude (Something we should of started to do 15 years ago when PKA formed)

The real sad thing is that I know most of the people running the various organisations and to the last I know they are all genuinely doing what they think is best for their sport/organisations unfortunatley they dont see things exactly the same way and no one seems willing to compromise for the greater good.

[tigertim]

r a c e h a v e f u n

PMSL

Last time I saw you race you were chucking your handles after your crumpled kite screaming "why does it always happen to me!!!???" PMSL

[GaRRy]

I agree Garry... something we've all said for a long time... but you now have to add CLSC to your list

Why the digs at CLSC all the time????

Taff think you are reading this wrong I pointed out there were already a large number of organisations insisting that need their insurance (at least some of the time) and Dave was just pointing out that there was now another one to add to the list. Yes the wink does add a bit of irony to it but dont think it was aimed at CLSC.

[andya]

@ Garry - thank you for the history lesson, not heard all that before.

@ Flydad - I thought FISLY said SPKA could be an associate member in Sept??? No idea what the FISLY membership levels mean (but I have asked..)

@ Tim - there's still good stuff coing out, and not too much heat