FED buggy racers

[trikbitz]

Delete it Tim

[avspider]

Racing's fun....
The polotic's isn't

[Tobz]

Then some people felt the PKA was unduly being controlled for certain people own finacial interests (How true this is I cant say) and so the BBC was formed

ROFL!

Well, all I can say about the current schism is that at least it was a decision of the members of the CLSC, by the members, for the members. The fact that non members have the most to lose out on is unfortunate. I guess the dilema faced by everyone was to continue the status quo in the hopes that SOMEONE grasped the nettle - OR to go with what what looked like the best value for money for the fee paying members...Dieter might have his <ahem> 'firm' Dutch/Germanic roots when it comes to expressing his opinion - but the CLSC is a democracy - unlike certain other self professed 'benign dictatorships' I could mention. If we've made a collective error, time will tell - and the people who suggested and proposed it to the membership are electable and by definition, unelectable if , in retrospect, it turns out that they called a bad shot. Frankly, I think its unlikely, as division and schism is the name of the day in this scene. Ho hum.

[andy55d]

I have gained a lot of information from this thread that has helped me understand the whys and wherefores of all parties involved. Its better to talk than sit in our individual bubbles not knowing what the other one is thinking or doing.

[Boater]

Sorry Jim your history is definately a bit out of order. PKA is the oldest buggy club in the world.

Yeah well it's hard to keep track when the guy explaining it keeps falling asleep in his beer and then repeating the same bit over and over again

OK, so I got the order of the PKA and the first buggiers joining WSYC in the wrong order by about 8 years (must admit I thought you had been in the club longer than that). Apart from that I think it is fairly minor inaccuracies?
Of course I neglected to mention that BPKA was formerly the BBC/PKSF, I just thought that would seem *****y, especially after the debates I have had with it's leader in the past.


Either way, the FED could easily have chosen not acknowledge class 8, they did and our sport (racing, which is what the thread is about) came about as a result - it has taken 15 years for it to get into this mess!

Likewise, whoever took the lead, if WSYC hadn't decided to accept buggies in 2001, where would we be now? Likewise if Dieter hadn't got the council to buy into CLSC after blanket banning buggies at Pendine (IIRC there was already a near total ban at Pembrey) all we would have left is Ainsdale, and it didn't start out too well.

The FED is the only reason we got access to any of those venues. OK Ainsdale is more open now, and CLSC have become independant, but in both cases it was association with FED originally that helped reassure the councils that the people involved could be credible and responsible.

Delete it Tim!

[windjammer]

delete it tim its doing my head in

[Jo0lz]

Long one this but bear with me....... . . . . . ..

NaH..its getting boring now
D E L E T E . . . I T !

[Mouthwash]

r a c e h a v e f u n

PMSL

Last time I saw you race you were chucking your handles after your crumpled kite screaming "why does it always happen to me!!!???" PMSL

I find that there are times when the numpties just get in my way..............

Believe it or not I do actually enjoy it. The frustrating part is getting the racing right let alone the fegukegging politics.

[Tobz]

DON'T delete it - otherwise this question/debate is going to crop up like a zombie every three months!

[flydad]

DON'T delete it - otherwise this question/debate is going to crop up like a zombie every three months!

it already does, with or without existing threads

[Micki]

After all the speculation, name calling and yes threats in private chat rooms people have made against me, here are just a few points as to why I suggested that it might be prudent to wait till everything had been ironed out before changing the insurance.

All RA had 90 days from inception to be excepted by Zurich this also means that Zurich has 90 days to implement any exclusions on the policy. All RA at the moment are held by the FED and are of varying standards and not all would be expectable.

Competing abroad was also a gray area as to if a Zurich trained RAs had to assess the beach or if they would except and want to see the host clubs RAs.

Zurich said they would cover claims retrospectively but not any known possible claims reported during the time at PS. However this is another gray area in need of investigation as there is a claim at the moment with the Perkin Slade that still has to run its course and this does not include the Lythem accident. And in theory it should not be any possible to have retrospective claims, as anything that could be a potential claim should be reported to your insurer, again another gray area.

There were other factors to consider but these were the main ones and what it boiled down to was that the insurance they were offering was not that much different to the PS one and could potential be more restrictive. I thought it was prudent to research other insurers as well as try to sort out the Zurich policy before I made a decision. This was not possible for me to do in the time given.

Add oddly enough this was not a decision that I took lightly and asked, believe it or not, for legally input from claims lawyers and the opinion of senior UWs and even more bizarrely chose to listen to their advise.

I was already playing catch up on a policy both Martin and Dieter had already looked into and was not prepared to write my name against something that had not been fully researched and was not 100% happy with. Whilst I was happy to look into possible insurers that would cover everything Class 8 wanted, and I had already made enquires with other Kiting bodies about the best route to go about this. I was and am not prepared to be ****ged off by people who don’t have the common courtesy to even ask me about what was going on.

Despite popular belief The PKA does not stand to gain anything by going with either insurer as we only require event insurance.

I have no idea what the final policy CLSC has been offered but the one I was asked to look into for the FED was different to the email that Dieter had. I have also spoken with Dieter at length regarding my position and opinion regarding the insurance offered to the FED and he is supportive of them.

[spooky]

Either way, the FED could easily have chosen not acknowledge class 8, they did and our sport (racing, which is what the thread is about) came about as a result - it has taken 15 years for it to get into this mess!

Likewise, whoever took the lead, if WSYC hadn't decided to accept buggies in 2001, where would we be now?

May be in a stronger position, well for traction kiting in general?

Only say that as to me the reason why there are so many "break away" clubs and associations is because the FED does not suit the majority of kiters?

To me the FED seems to take the stance of, join us to use OUR beaches (what cause they were there first??) but offer very little unless you race, and by the sounds of this thread still do not offer much?

By the sounds of it, very dificult to change the stance of a club unless there are a majority of kiters in it. Ok democracy says majority rule, but that does not mean it has to be all kiters. Seems as if some non kiters think we are a threat or "not my problem" so vote againts rather than atleast allowing kiters the chance to develope?

Then at a national level, unless you can get enough clubs to support (see bit above) then still will not be able to push the needs of kiters?

I keep getting told that the FED is the "officially" recognised govening body for kiters, yet seems very little reason for us to join? After all look at their web site hardly anything about kiting and even less for boarders

Seems to be they are a bit like the BKSA, in that only way for them to increase numbers is to make it so that you have to join "their" club to use a a site.

So if class 8 had not joined the FED, may be we would have had our OWN govening body by now or atleast ALL be in the same one?

Good luck,

Jon
(Awaits flaming )

[GaRRy]

Either way, the FED could easily have chosen not acknowledge class 8, they did and our sport (racing, which is what the thread is about) came about as a result - it has taken 15 years for it to get into this mess!

Likewise, whoever took the lead, if WSYC hadn't decided to accept buggies in 2001, where would we be now?

May be in a stronger position, well for traction kiting in general?

Only say that as to me the reason why there are so many "break away" clubs and associations is because the FED does not suit the majority of kiters?

To me the FED seems to take the stance of, join us to use OUR beaches (what cause they were there first??) but offer very little unless you race, and by the sounds of this thread still do not offer much?

By the sounds of it, very dificult to change the stance of a club unless there are a majority of kiters in it. Ok democracy says majority rule, but that does not mean it has to be all kiters. Seems as if some non kiters think we are a threat or "not my problem" so vote againts rather than atleast allowing kiters the chance to develope?

Then at a national level, unless you can get enough clubs to support (see bit above) then still will not be able to push the needs of kiters?

I keep getting told that the FED is the "officially" recognised govening body for kiters, yet seems very little reason for us to join? After all look at their web site hardly anything about kiting and even less for boarders

Seems to be they are a bit like the BKSA, in that only way for them to increase numbers is to make it so that you have to join "their" club to use a a site.

So if class 8 had not joined the FED, may be we would have had our OWN govening body by now or atleast ALL be in the same one?

Good luck,

Jon
(Awaits flaming )

Get no flames from me. However as a counter point. If having joined over 15 years ago we had bothered to take a full active part in organisation by joining the local clubs who do you think would be runnign the FED by now ?. At one point in early 2000 PKA had over 350 members. Guess how many were members of there local FED club ?. Less than 10 and none those were active in any other way than making use of the facilites provided.

Most FED meetings the PKA did/does not even bother to attend. Guess we got the (Dis)organisation we deserved.

[craig.w]

Racing's fun....
The polotic's isn't

......and thats why many people are put off racing
look! another 15 pages of guff about racers not agreeing about stuff again, just enough to put off more potentials!!


delete it Tim!

[RedWineRacer]

......and thats why many people are put off racing
look! another 15 pages of guff about racers not agreeing about stuff again, just enough to put off more potentials!!

Does not put people off it's just inconvenient. I am not sure how many racers have actually posted on here (I certainly haven't ). You can all argue and discuss all the various merits of different policies etc. At the end of the day I will have to buy 3 insurance policies:

1 to buggy at Hoylake and race in most races around the country
1 to buggy at Pembrey and Pendine and race there
1 to buggy at West Wittering

Inconvenient, but compared to the total expense of racing, a minor extra.

[GaRRy]

Racing's fun....
The polotic's isn't

......and thats why many people are put off racing
look! another 15 pages of guff about racers not agreeing about stuff again, just enough to put off more potentials!!


delete it Tim!

Actually this discussion is about the fragmented structure of our sport in the UK. This does not just effect racers. Im sure if the PKA said stuff it we will go on our own and everyone will have our insurance to take part it would make it easier for them and racing would continue. This problem effects us all. Do you want a sport so fragmented that you need 6 or seven different insurances to allow you to go where you like.

It is perfectly possible now for someone to need the following

FED Insurance to use Hoylake
CLSC Insurance to use Pendine/Pembrey
BPKA Insurance for general flying down local park
BKSA Insurance to kite surf in certain locations
etc
etc
etc

Note PKA is not on that list as it would quite willing to accept any of them if it could. This is not a racing issue at all.

[spooky]

Get no flames from me. However as a counter point. If having joined over 15 years ago we had bothered to take a full active part in organisation by joining the local clubs who do you think would be runnign the FED by now ?. At one point in early 2000 PKA had over 350 members. Guess how many were members of there local FED club ?. Less than 10 and none those were active in any other way than making use of the facilites provided.

Most FED meetings the PKA did/does not even bother to attend. Guess we got the (Dis)organisation we deserved.

True, but this is how I would like to have seen it.

Kiting totally seperate from the FED (bare with me on this).

Those who wish to race join the PKA which is affiliated to the FED so can used FED sites for events/races (if I have read this thread correctly?)
Yes that means PKA racers would have no say as to how the FED runs/changes, but according to this thread that is how it is anyway as it is the clubs that run things etc.

Now some would say, that they would not be able to use their local FED site for day to day kiting as you have to be in x,y, z club and hence join the FED?

IMHO two options, they could still join if their FED club if it allows class 8 if they wish.
May sound like thats the opposite of what I started out on, but my issue is with the so called "adoption" of ALL class 8/kiters and thus the club can decide if they want it or not. Nothing wrong with FED clubs allowing ANY activity if they want it, just not dictate to all etc.

Or my favorite, kiters approach councils to say "we are not a land yatch" and as such we want our own access, which as in the case of Ainsdale, CLSC etc prove that it can be done.
After all lets be honest 95% of all access issue are sorted by locals and not a "govening body" who even you think that may be?

So now you could use the same beach as the FED but in your own right as a kiter.
Those who wish to race have a govening body which is recognised by FISLEY (sp?) but does not force all to be classed as a Land Yatch.

Blue Sky thinking I know, but sorry for me a recreational kiter/boarder the FED does nothing for me except restrict where I can fly
And I still say they do not even have a "class" for boarders as class 7 is very wolley in description, especially as Brean (to my knowlage) allow speed sailors but not kites.....?


I wish all those that are putting the hard work in to push kiting the best of luck, but until what appears to be a "pull up the ladder I'm alright" approach ends the FED will never attact the membership it wants.

But then again why should they, as while we accept their argument of they are the Gov Body for land kiters, they are on a winner as they "control" the beaches. Only when they realise their are other options for kiters and we can get access to the same beaches will they realise the only way to "control us" is to involve us.

INclusion NOT EXclusion

Good luck, Jon

[andya]

Another titbit to throw into the midst ... from the FISLY SG

"FISLY constitution will be published on the site www.fisly.org shortly.The difference in full and associate membership lies in the number of votes in Council an General Assembly, the membership fee (which is being revised at the moment) and the right to organize European or World Championships."

Unsure until the consitution is published if Corresponding members (like BPA) have any such rights at all.

But SPKA (if they take the option of associate members), and IPKA as full members appear to have more power at FISLY.

[The Flyin Scotsman]

I believe that the SPKA is a corresponding member, the IPKA is a full member, and the Fed is a full member

If I remember correctly that means that the Fed and the IPKA have the rights to 2 votes, and the SPKA has 1 vote...

Kev

[andya]

I believe that the SPKA is a corresponding member, the IPKA is a full member, and the Fed is a full member

If I remember correctly that means that the Fed and the IPKA have the rights to 2 votes, and the SPKA has 1 vote...

Kev

Hi Kev, I've absolutely no knowledge of this beyond what I read in the FISLY Meeting minutes 20/9/07 ....

"00.1Membership of class 8 association:
The can become corresponding member if they agree to pay.
The Scottish Federation could in that case become FISLY-associated member."

It is unclear as it mentions both associated and corresponding membership. Odd.

http://www.bfslyc.org.uk/files/FCM%2...20.09.2007.rtf

[Freeman]

got to agree with the posts above, the FED does little to help Class 8, but then Class 8 does little for the FED, well except stump up £££'s in Insurance & 'Affiliation' fee's.

Yes, we need a national body to represent all Kitesports, but unless we stop *****ing about what's wrong, and try and sort something that does tick everyone's boxes, nothing will change....

[GaRRy]

got to agree with the posts above, the FED does little to help Class 8, but then Class 8 does little for the FED, well except stump up £££'s in Insurance & 'Affiliation' fee's.

Yes, we need a national body to represent all Kitesports, but unless we stop *****ing about what's wrong, and try and sort something that does tick everyone's boxes, nothing will change....

All correct and a couple of years ago I tried but EVERY organisation when it came down to it would just start to sound like Vicky Pollard (Yea But, No But). Personal life got complicated and so I gave up and since then if anything its got more fragmented and to honest I just cant get the enthusiasm to spend the time need to try and sort it out (I reckon someone would need to be at it almost full time)

[tigertim]

OK - I know I promised to delete this thread, but theres a lot of really good contribution and a lot of people think it should stand. So I think its only fair to keep it. Garry - thanks a lot for your input, I'm glad you came along and gave the perspective from someones who been there from the start - very enlightening!

A few people have commented about it just being another argument amongst racers. Maybe I'm thick skinned but I don't see much of this as arguing here (I think people just like to think we argue!). Also, maybe I was a bit naive and miopic in just talking about racers, there are clearly broader things at work for buggiers and all powerkite sports here, indeed all wind powered sports.

Perhaps we need a new thread, which takes Spooky's blue sky thinking approach. As a buggier and a powerkiter, I'm interested in how we can get organised as a whole and within our individual disciplines. My view (as a buggier) is that we probably need to get buggying organised first before we can even start considering how to work, compromise and agree with the other disciplines.

If someone were to ask me who our governing body is (either for powerkites generally or just for buggying) I'd have to answer don't know or even not sure if one really exists. Thats not a great position to be in for a sport thats been around for 15 years or so.

We need to consider where we are now, but start with a blank piece of paper.

Any thoughts? Anyone want to start the thread?

[windjammer]

Racing's fun....
The polotic's isn't

......and thats why many people are put off racing
look! another 15 pages of guff about racers not agreeing about stuff again, just enough to put off more potentials!!


delete it Tim!

there arnt any polotics in the super cup more of a laid back attitude

[avspider]

......and thats why many people are put off racing
look! another 15 pages of guff about racers not agreeing about stuff again, just enough to put off more potentials!!


delete it Tim!

there arnt any polotics in the super cup more of a laid back attitude

Hence S/C 2008 here i come!!!